Original link: https://www.latepost.com/news/dj_detail?id=1179
Luo Yonghao has worked on websites, training schools, smartphones, air purifiers, and e-commerce live broadcast rooms, and is known as “one of the best product managers in China”. But so far, his most successful product may not be the above, but the image of “Luo Yonghao”.
This image once loved public expression, dared to ridicule authority, criticize injustice, and was serious and critical about products and had a very high aesthetic pursuit. These images were built and reinforced by him, becoming a solid personal brand that helped him throughout his career.
Luo Yonghao never sells certain brands of goods during his live broadcast. Although he thinks “it’s normal for those companies to have problems”, fans will mind, so “in order to take care of their feelings”, he would rather not sell even lucrative products. broadcast. If there is a problem with the live broadcast product, before there are large-scale consumer complaints or industrial and commercial intervention, he will take the initiative to compensate three times, and there is no need to return it. “Businesses should have done this in the first place, but because almost no companies do this, we do this, and the effect of advertising is much better than the same amount of advertising.”
When it comes to personal branding, Luo Yonghao maintains the impression that the public always thinks that “you must compare your money with money”. Shooting a short video for Lao Luo was “completely a nightmare”. He would revise the script until the last minute, repeatedly confirming, “Has the human body been destroyed?” “Is there any deviation in the tonality of the live broadcast room?” There are still problems with the script that has been revised many times, and it will be temporarily decided not to shoot.
Because this article is fortunate to be Luo Yonghao’s last public interview and dialogue before he bids farewell to social networks, it is highly valued by him.
Compared with Lao Luo’s “unchanged”, “change” impresses his current colleagues more deeply. Many employees in the company are also employees of Hammer Technology. They said that in the past two years, they have seen Mr. Luo lose his temper “relatively less”. Although Luo Yonghao is not the person in charge of this company in terms of name and capital, he does not participate in the weekly executive meeting once. Luo Yonghao is the core figure of the Make Friends Company, not only because he is the biggest anchor of the team.
The employees respected him, trusted him, and feared him. His temper, willfulness and authority are tolerated and accepted by all. Without Luo Yonghao and his successful personal brand for many years, it would be impossible to have a live broadcast company that quickly established industry status and unique temperament.
Persistently maintaining personal brand, for Luo Yonghao himself, sometimes it is because of cherishing feathers, sometimes it is because of interests, and sometimes it seems to be just a habit for many years.
Cao Wei may be one of the people who has worked with Luo Yonghao for many years who can understand him best from a spiritual level, and is also the last barrier for Luo Yonghao, who has “serious social fear”, to face the media. When discussing this topic, Cao Wei said that he believes that the biggest misunderstanding of Luo Yonghao by the outside world is that people don’t know how much he hates fame and facing the public.
Bringing goods through live broadcast allows Luo Yonghao to do his least favorite thing with a higher frequency, and he has to face the camera for several hours every time. “In the past, he could only be recognized when he went to certain areas in first- and second-tier cities, such as places where literary and artistic young people gathered.” Cao Wei said, “Now even when he goes to the vegetable market in small cities, aunts and aunts will point at him. Say, oops, isn’t this the guy who sells on Douyin? What’s his name?”
“If I can maintain the company without public expression, I am willing to live 5 years less.” Luo Yonghao told the media before, “This is a very honest idea.”
Bringing goods through live broadcast can’t keep Luo Yonghao’s enthusiasm for more than half a year. He insists on it so far, mostly to pay off debts. But such a project that could not keep him excited is the most successful commercial project he has been involved in for many years.
Talking about the past, the ultimate failure of Hammer Technology cannot be avoided. There is no lesson more memorable than a straight and complete failure, let alone a cause in which the founders have invested a great deal of passion and affection. Seeing Lao Luo again after three years, he finally has a deep and accurate summary of himself, and the business pointer seems to be calibrated.
When preparing to make a mobile phone in 2012, Luo Yonghao only prepared 8 million yuan and went to the hardware team. The other party directly asked the introducer, “Is your friend sick? He doesn’t know that 8 million cannot be used as a mobile phone, but can only be used as a mobile phone case. ?” Now, seeing the investor with the AR project, he has already thought about Plan A, Plan B, and Plan C in advance according to the various possibilities of development results, and each plan corresponds to a clear commercialization path.
The live broadcast career has just passed two years, and the debt has come to an end.
Luo Yonghao officially announced his “exit” a week ago to make a friend. The management of the live broadcast company will only help make a friend to complete dozens of live broadcasts as a “guest anchor” in the next three years. “It will not take up much time and will not affect the new company’s business ‘ he added. This morning, Luo Yonghao announced his withdrawal from social media such as Sina Weibo, which has been an important position of speech for many years, and will no longer accept media interviews in principle in the next few years. He and his colleagues at AR technology companies will “dedicate themselves to the development of next-generation intelligent platform products for several years.”
Before that, he had also considered retirement, and the process of making up his mind was extremely tangled.
He once hung a small whiteboard at the entrance of his study, and went back to the live broadcast every day. When he remembered it, he wrote a note on the whiteboard and turned it upside down for several months. On the whiteboard, dozens of comparisons of the pros and cons of retirement were densely listed. The things you can do in retirement are “very enjoyable”: sleep until you wake up naturally every day, travel around the world, and listen to the scenes of your favorite global musicians.
But there was a period of time when he was really idle, and Luo Yonghao “couldn’t sleep all night.” Leisurely makes him more sensitive to age. Sometimes he eats too much when he goes out to eat, but the stomach discomfort makes him suspect that age is at play; seeing the rock band he liked when he was young in the video is “too old”, it also makes him feel His grief came from it; he opened a photo of himself more than 10 years ago and finally realized that he too was “terribly old”.
Luo Yonghao is 50 years old and has been active in the public eye for more than 20 years. He has a group of old fans who may never leave him, and he also believes that he can continue to attract young new fans. Years of public expression have made his idealistic side deeply rooted in the hearts of the people, and it has also blurred a person’s supposedly diverse and complex image——
He was an idealized idealist, a more mature entrepreneur, a more qualified businessman. At the beginning, the desire to “complete an important and influential thing that can create greater value for more people” has not been abandoned until today.
The decision to retire was entangled in the end, and his wife couldn’t bear to see him troubled, so she advised, “If you start a business again, I don’t know how likely you will regret it; but if you retire now, the probability of you regretting it must be 100%.”
Luo Yonghao thought for a while: “This account is correct.”
“LatePost” interviewed Luo Yonghao twice in early March and early May this year. The following is our dialogue (part of the answers have been revised by Luo Yonghao himself):
“In the technology industry, we want to be the biggest first.”
“LatePost”: Have you really decided to leave and make friends? After you leave, will the company not have problems?
Luo Yonghao: No. Since the first day of making friends, our anchor and I have been saying “we make friends live broadcast room” rather than “our Luo Yonghao live broadcast room” almost forever, and the communication of various channels is also carried out in this way. Everyone in the management knew that I was going to leave when I almost finished paying off the debt. They have been thinking about what to do in the future when Lao Luo is gone in their business for more than two years. In the process, a reasonable and feasible solution has almost been found.
Last week, the name of our live broadcast room was officially changed from “Luo Yonghao” to “Make Friends Live Room”, and an announcement was made. In the next few years, I will still help them do a few live broadcasts every month. It is not necessary for the business, but the management does not want investors to worry. I also attend an important company meeting every quarter, but I can really leave completely for the specific business.
“LatePost”: The company is not worried that after you fade out, the live broadcast effect will change significantly?
Luo Yonghao: For more than half a year, I have controlled my live broadcast time to less than 3% of the company’s total live broadcast time, but the sales revenue and profit are still growing on the whole. It should be unique in the business world. For various reasons, most organizations in this industry will only do personal branding, not corporate branding. Many things I have done in the past have often been criticized in this way, and this time it was a basically successful transformation attempt.
“LatePost”: Why do you choose AR for re-starting a business?
Luo Yonghao: Almost from the day I determined that Hammer Technology failed, I was thinking about what to do when I paid off my debt. Many specific tasks in the process of debt repayment can easily trigger negative emotions. It is very healing to take time to think about these things every day. In the past three years, I have talked with several partners to the end, there are only two directions that I am really interested in and willing to devote to the rest of my life, one is electric vehicles, and the other is the next-generation computing platform.
Unlike mobile phones, electric vehicles have a very mature foundry. It may take at least five or six years from start to mass production, and the capital requirements are many times larger. In the past three years, in addition to the three new car-making forces, many super heavyweight players have also entered the field one after another. We comprehensively estimated the difficulty and time window, and felt that it was too late. In the end, we naturally chose AR.
Some people think VR is a next-generation platform, and they also come up with the concept of “metaverse” to tell some grand stories. We think that the essence of VR is more like a game console. The global annual sales of the three major game consoles are about 50 million units. Even if VR has more social attributes, it should end up selling 100 to 200 million units a year, so it may be the best-selling game console in history. Only when the world holds billions of devices at the same time and can sell billions of devices every year can it be called a next-generation computing platform. We believe that AR is the next-generation computing platform, which is largely a consensus in the technology community, not our original idea.
“LatePost”: Where did the urge and passion to make a car come from?
Luo Yonghao: Most men like cars. My generation was poor and never owned a car when they were young. In addition, electric vehicles are a subversion of the rotten traditional automobile industry, and it is more meaningful and fulfilling to be able to do this.
I put down a company that can make a lot of money and come back to the technology industry. I definitely still want to try to choose the largest track and do some amazing things. In addition to making more money, the big track is more important to create greater social value. This is very important for a team like us with some ideals and pursuits, otherwise we will not be able to maintain our enthusiasm for work for a long time.
“LatePost”: Overseas tech giants Meta, Apple, etc. are also doing AR, where are your opportunities?
Luo Yonghao: A very important factor in choosing AR is that the time window is particularly good for a team of our level. Large technology companies basically do not have all-in AR, and the only one that claims to be heavily involved in AR is Apple. But judging from the information from the supply chain, what Apple is doing is an AR and VR XR device. Domestic Hua, Mi, O, V have not officially launched for various reasons, or at least will not make large-scale investment in AR soon. If AR can be commercialized on a large scale in a year or two, tech giants will soon rush in, and startups will have a hard time getting a chance. When we made mobile phones back then, the timing was too late, and we were passive everywhere.
On the other hand, at present, startups around the world who are fully committed to AR are almost always small teams of one or two hundred people. To do it on such a small scale may be a matter of financing ability or cognition, but in any case, even if a team of one or two hundred people works for more than ten years, they will not be able to come up with something that can be used and commercialized. The huge amount of software and hardware engineering of AR is placed there, and it takes at least three or five years of development on a scale of hundreds to thousands of people to make a consumer-level thing. Therefore, as a team whose comprehensive resources are seriously insufficient and more than the next, a time window of about five years and an annual project volume of several thousand people are more appropriate.
“LatePost”: An AR device that sells more than 1 billion units worldwide every year, what kind of product will it be?
Luo Yonghao: We don’t talk about many products to the outside world now. First, many specific ideas are not convenient to disclose at this stage. Second, our previous failures in the mobile phone business were not lost on products. People in the industry basically know it, and most investors also recognize it. .
“LatePost”: Many technology enthusiasts around the world are looking forward to Apple’s first launch of an amazing AR product, are you worried?
Luo Yonghao: I believe that Apple will definitely make some hard-core indicators in terms of hardware or technical parameters that cannot be achieved in the world, but I have little expectations for their product innovation. Eleven years after Jobs’ death, the company has done really well except for one wireless headset, with almost zero innovation in other products, and some even significantly backward. Why is the world looking forward to Apple’s new products? Seems like it’s just because it’s now the richest tech company in the world. Proust said, “Snobbery is the incurable disease of mankind,” and it is true. Sometimes I do, too, and I understand.
Another reason I’m not very optimistic about Apple is that during the platform revolution, the ruler of the new world is almost never the hegemon of the old world, although the old hegemon must have the strongest resources. This phenomenon is not accidental. There are some very simple and hard logics about human nature: for newcomers, it is the lives of others who are revolutionized, and it is very exciting to revolutionize; for the old overlords, it is their own lives that are revolutionized. , the internal coordination alone is already terrible. What’s more, the founder has passed away. Does the revolution depend on professional managers?
Compared to Apple, I sometimes think that in some corner of the world, maybe a talented entrepreneurial team can finally get enough money, make amazing things, and achieve miraculous success. This is what keeps me awake when I think about it, for fear that our progress will fall behind. Of course, if we do it well enough and fast enough, we might be that team.
“LatePost”: Do you have any new understanding of “the original idol” Jobs now?
Luo Yonghao: Due to serious ignorance in business, before I started a technology company, I only paid attention to his product-related matters, and did not pay attention to other aspects at all. As a product manager-type entrepreneur, after being a company manager for many years, I was seriously incompetent before I realized that the humiliation and growth between Steve Jobs being kicked out of Apple in 1985 and his return in 1998 may be more worthy of my research and study. educational.
But if he is still alive today and is still leading the product team, I think my team can still compete in terms of product and design capabilities under the condition of many times of scarce resources; his forward-looking and foreseeing technology trends Ability, I have never been involved in the past, I have been studying hard all these years, but this is not as magical as the legend, it has tools and methodology; he has many unique practices in company organization and management… This part may be ours One of the biggest challenges ahead, but the way Apple is organized may not be the best for us.
what else? Oh. As for the natural shrewdness of business and calculation, even the shrewdness of a profiteer, I can’t catch up with him on a rocket in my life. But fortunately, you can find a partner to solve this. After all, no profiteer Jobs can’t rape Tim Cook. Well, Cook is a respectable operations management genius and one of the strongest professional managers in history, and any company is lucky to find such a manager.
“LatePost”: When it comes to Apple, you have to say a few words, right?
Luo Yonghao: (laughs) It seems so. Being cheap is really a big problem for entrepreneurs. Fortunately, I will stop my social media accounts immediately, and I will not be interviewed for the next few years. It will be a lot easier for my colleagues in the company’s public relations department.
“To start a business, I not only have plan A, but also plan B and plan C”
“Late”: Come back. You mentioned that you need to use a team of hundreds or thousands of people for three to five years of development. How will you arrange these three to five years?
Luo Yonghao: Specifically, our hardware team will develop an engineering machine every year, which in principle is limited to internal development and use, until the commercialization conditions and the overall environment are generally mature before it is sold. At present, the hardware level of the entire industry has not been able to be commercialized and successful on a large scale, such as power consumption, heat generation, weight, battery life, etc., which is far from acceptable and consumption by ordinary consumers. Those companies that forcibly sell their products now must sell one and lose the other. The industry generally estimates that commercialization conditions will be basically mature in about five years.
“Late”: But aren’t some companies selling AR products all the time? Some have even been sold for generations.
Luo Yonghao: Some teams sell products because of a complete misjudgment of market conditions; some are to verify some uncertainties; some are to show investors and the media, and try to expand their influence to obtain resources for continued development. We basically do not have similar needs and problems this time, so we will not rush to release immature products, and the loss will be smaller in the process.
As for the software, we would spend a few years completely writing the built-in software and the operating system with a lot of low-level design refactorings. Innovation in this regard is our core competitiveness. In the age of mobile phones, because it’s too late, a lot of our creativity and ingenuity is just adding to the building blocks of a maturing operating system. And that advantage was quickly wiped out by plagiarism from big companies. But in the new AR era, everyone is drawing on white paper.
“Late”: Generally speaking, many people in the technology industry tend to think that Chinese technology companies can’t handle the OS.
Luo Yonghao: From the perspective of production and research, many investors do not believe the realization of OS. It’s not that we simply don’t believe in us, it’s that we don’t believe that the Chinese team can make it happen as a whole. Although the OS is extremely difficult, it can definitely be done. It’s just that part of the underlying technical team may be placed in Silicon Valley or Northern Europe, and there is basically no talent pool in this area in China. We have done several detailed investigations and evaluations before, and it must be technically feasible. In fact, the most difficult thing about making an OS is not the ability of production and research, but the follow-up ecological construction of the system, which requires resources.
Many of the older generation of tech bigwigs in China don’t believe it either. It’s possible that they all succeeded by relying on “copy to China” back then, so no matter how big their careers are, whether or not they can accomplish something for the Chinese is still in their bones. lack of confidence. Although the younger generation of technology entrepreneurs may not believe that it is my team that can make the next-generation platform OS, they basically do not doubt that the Chinese can make it. This is also an interesting change brought about by the progress of the times.
“Late”: Do they believe it or not, is it important to you?
Luo Yonghao: Confidence and fighting spirit will not have any impact on me. We have been thinking about this for many years. Along with many relevant practices and researches in the era of hammer technology, we have understood it clearly. But if all investors don’t believe that the Chinese can make OS, it will become very troublesome, and financing itself may have problems. If the tech giants don’t believe all of them, there will be fewer opportunities in the process, whether it’s strategic investment or possible business cooperation.
“Latter”: If it is a next-generation computing platform, it will inevitably have to compete with big companies. are you ready?
Luo Yonghao: Since it is such a big opportunity, when the commercialization of AR products is approaching, a large number of technology giants with resources will rush in. Regardless of whether they understand smart hardware or not, they will try it out. When these big companies compete, what they care most about is not money, but time.
If we use hundreds to thousands of people to research and develop for three to five years, and the whole process is highly confidential, after the release in the future, large companies will arrange for thousands or even tens of thousands of people to plagiarize for more than a year. In the development of such large-scale software projects, a large number of people will definitely prevail, but beyond a certain scale, there will be diminishing marginal effects. Because many detours and pitfalls are inevitable in the development process, it is not simply an increase of manpower in exchange for time.
In fact, when the technology industry enters a new field, many product-driven startups often want to find a talented technical partner regardless of whether the team’s genes are suitable or not, and make some kind of black technology that the world can’t do. They also often don’t realize that completing a huge amount of code is itself an extremely strong moat. In this sense, as long as we complete the project on schedule, we are halfway there. If the process goes well, and with a little luck, we want to make something like 2007’s iPhone + iOS in the AR age to be the “Apple” of the next platform.
The Late: How sure are you to achieve this goal?
Luo Yonghao: Frankly speaking, very slim. It should be a life-and-death experience. In terms of product alone, we are very sure to win, but in the platform-level war, even if a small company makes the best product in the world, it is not enough.
Teams without sufficient resources will almost certainly die halfway through. Over the years, we will often talk about it. If the iPhone released in 2007 was not an Apple company with a market value of hundreds or hundreds of billions of dollars, but a small and medium-sized enterprise with a few hundred people or one or two thousand people, what would be the result? The most reasonable guess is that there is a high probability that other giants will be crushed to death by a series of means such as plagiarism, poaching, monopolizing specific resources, and launching rogue patent lawsuits. There is also a great possibility of being acquired by a large company.
“Late”: What if it doesn’t work?
Luo Yonghao: We also have a highly feasible Plan B: if we can’t fight for resources and can’t do things independently, we also don’t mind being invested, controlled or acquired by a large company with sufficient resources, and then we will put our software and OS together. Open source, there is every chance to make something similar to Android.
If the luck is really bad, and then take the next best thing, there is also a great chance to become a smart hardware product company such as Hua, Mi, O, V. After all, this time we are several years ahead of most of our strong peers.
The Late: You give the team five years. What if you can’t make it through five years? Midway financing failures and the like are also common for innovative and long-term projects.
Luo Yonghao: First of all, we will definitely not have no income for five years, and we will make some relatively certain income in the process. The code reuse rate of AR and VR software is still very high, and the software bonus period of the VR platform is coming, and there are still many opportunities. Some of the applications we do for AR can be released on VR platforms with minor changes, and this practice will not deviate from the company’s long-term goals. In addition, although the commercialization of general-purpose AR devices will take about five years, specific-purpose vertical AR devices, such as AR glasses for education, complex skills training and special industries, may be commercialized successfully within two or three years. So there must be income in the process.
“The Late”: In entrepreneurship, there are still too many uncertainties.
Luo Yonghao: The process must be full of dangers. And we firmly believe that in the past five years, there must be at least one super downturn in AR, so that investors all over the world are afraid of AR projects.
Several of our founding partners have experienced entrepreneurship and bankruptcy, and some of them have more than one time. If objective difficulties arise, they will not miss the opportunity of self-help for the company because they can’t be ruthless like in the past. For example, the management should reduce the salary immediately, and the company should immediately lay off the large-scale layoffs and so on. All partners will also invest their own money into the company with real money. Among them, one of my partners and I have the ability to put money in every round of financing. In case of the most difficult situation, relying on your own money can also maintain the team to continue to go down in size and support until a turning point occurs. In any case, this should be the last time I start a business. I will put everything I have in it, and I believe that I will definitely leave something to the world.
“After the collapse of the Hammer Branch, all my stinky problems were cured”
“Late”: When will you think about plan B and plan C? You didn’t think much about starting a business before.
Luo Yonghao: Because it closed down. Closure is the cure for everything. Entrepreneurs must fail at least once or twice, otherwise they will not really grow. Later, I often thought that it would have been better if the mobile phone business had closed down two years earlier, so that I would not have to owe so much debt, hurt so many friends and investors in the supply chain, and the transition would be relatively easy. It is very likely that we are now working on electric vehicles. , that is also very happy.
“Latter”: You said several times that the hammer should go out of business sooner, why didn’t you give up in time?
Luo Yonghao: At the beginning of the hard support, in addition to loving mobile phones and platform-level products that integrate software and hardware, and not wanting to disappoint the hammer friends, there should be some naive, unnecessary face and competitiveness. For example, subconsciously, you still take yourself too seriously, and you cannot face a straightforward failure. In fact, as long as things can be done, the entrepreneur’s ego does not need to be so powerful. Of course, it is not enough if there is no such thing at all. The key is to be rational and balanced.
“Latency”: For an industry with strong competition, entry sooner or later is a very critical factor. When did you start to really embrace this view?
Luo Yonghao: I knew this for a long time, but I really learned not to do unnecessary competition after the bankruptcy. The biggest advantage of closing down is that it has no room for maneuver, no excuses, and there is no such intermediate state as micro-failures, half-failures, or 70 percent failures. A bankruptcy is a hard, 100% pure failure, which is especially refreshing.
Since the mid-term of Hammer Technology, several well-known investors are particularly optimistic about our products and marketing capabilities. After several times of persuasion, if you are willing to transform, we will consider voting for you in whatever you do, but don’t make a mobile phone anymore, the time has passed, and doing it again will only harm others and yourself. I said I rely on it, how can I hurt others and myself? Our mobile phones are doing so well, how could it not be?
In 2016, there was another tech tycoon with a product background who wanted to buy us, and he always chatted with me. He gave me advice based on his own blood and tears experience, saying that the most common mistake for product manager-type entrepreneurs like us is not believing Opportunities, if you don’t believe in the wind, you always think that Laozi’s products are better than yours. If you come out later, it will kill you, but the real business world does not work like this.
At that time, I was very touched and understood that this must be the case, but when I returned to the company, I was subconsciously unwilling. Then I can’t help thinking about some of the most extreme and rare cases in history, always thinking that they can create miracles, why can’t I? These obsessions, or frankly speaking, are stinky problems, and they will all be cured once they go bankrupt.
“Latter”: You told us a few years ago that you are not a qualified CEO. After the bankruptcy, what reflections did you have on management?
Luo Yonghao: The financial VP of Hammer Technology also worked in New Oriental before. She once asked me, Lao Luo, you see so many young famous teachers in New Oriental. Go out to start a business, but the success rate is very low. Have you ever thought about the reason? I said it seems to be the case, but I don’t know why. She said that if a person is young and successful, he will earn many times more money than his peers in his 20s, and a large number of his peers have become his die-hard fans. This person may form an overly powerful mentality at a young age. Self, I think that no matter what I do, as long as I climb up and shout, there will be countless people willing to follow, and it is true.
It is easy for such a person to recruit a bunch of little brothers to start a business. And those who didn’t have such conditions when they were young but were still smart and capable, when they started their businesses, they would go everywhere to find people who were as strong as themselves, or even stronger than themselves, to do things with them. The second type of person is usually more likely to succeed in starting a business than the first type. I was very shocked when I heard it, and it was a bit of a dazzling feeling.
The Late: Does this summary apply to you?
Luo Yonghao: It is especially applicable. In the early days of Hammer Technology, almost all of them were little brothers. At that time, Tang Yan told me that you must ensure that there are several significant and real partners in the team. They dare to beat the table with you, and you will pay attention and worry. If you just let them go as soon as they hit the table, then the ceiling of the team is you, and it will be difficult for the company to go up a few more steps.
But because I didn’t know much and didn’t pay enough attention, Hammer Technology has been working for four years before several heavyweight partners joined. Their salary is several times higher than mine, and one person can support the entire department. The first time someone was arguing about slapping the table with me, I sat there and thought about it. At this time, the management team of the company is much healthier, but it is still too late after all.
Now the founding partners of AR company are very important. How should I put it, it can be considered that they are all my uncles. In fact, in addition to a stronger company, this is also very happy subjectively. When leading a group of little brothers to start a business, there was really something that I didn’t fully grasp, and I didn’t know who to discuss it with, which made my heart very bitter.
“Latter”: Looking back now, what do you think is the biggest misunderstanding of the hammer?
Luo Yonghao: There are too many, and these are not important now. In the world of business, cognition has always been greater than the truth. The truth is not important, but everyone’s cognition of your company and brand is important. Besides, these misunderstandings and cognitive biases are basically caused by my own unprofessionalism and deserve it.
“Late”: You will be quitting social media and not giving interviews for the next few years, why is this decision made?
Luo Yonghao: When I was working on Hammer Technology, because of my personal influence, I did many things for the company that were difficult for other entrepreneurs to do. For example, the benefits in marketing and public communication were obvious. But the benefits of this personal influence, how many points are added to the company, correspondingly, how many points are reduced because of my personality shortcomings.
“Late”: What do you think is the weakness of your character?
Luo Yonghao: I am stubborn by nature, open-mouthed, and have an aggressive personality. After I became the person in charge of the company, I often couldn’t restrain myself and caused a lot of unnecessary trouble for the company. If I calculate the general ledger, I can’t even tell whether my personal influence is a plus or minus for the company as a whole.
In addition, I have relatively serious social phobia. Although I have been very active on public platforms for many years, if possible, I especially hope to live a quiet life for a few years. This need is often a luxury for entrepreneurs with public influence. Fortunately, AR companies do not need publicity work in the first few years, so I want to take this rare opportunity to withdraw from the public view and make products for a few years with peace of mind.
“The Late”: How do you now evaluate how your public influence helps you as an entrepreneur?
Luo Yonghao: There are very few individuals with public influence who can rely on such personal influence to make a great enterprise. Usually the help of personal influence to entrepreneurship is the role of early brand hot start. In the end, it depends on the comprehensive ability as an entrepreneur to make an excellent enterprise.
“Latter”: Will you not make public expressions at all in the future?
Luo Yonghao: For possible future work needs, my colleagues from AR company have helped me to open a Weibo account named “Product Manager Luo Yonghao”, asking me to do some professional exchanges only related to products in the future, or through related exchanges Hire some product managers. Although I agreed verbally, I dare not use it lightly.
According to past experience, even if it is a product discussion that has no interest related, it will be used as a headline party by some boring media, saying “Luo Yonghao scolded” a certain product, or “Luo Yonghao just sucks and doesn’t hesitate to kneel and lick” a certain product . For example, when I posted on Weibo enthusiastically praised my favorite electric car, the Ideal ONE, I bought the Ideal ONE myself. This must be no problem, right? As a result, I was scolded by many people, saying that I was “shameless, I took money and spoke against my conscience”. In the second year, the Marketing Department of Ideal Company approached me to shoot an advertisement. In order to avoid suspicion, I couldn’t accept the advertisement that I wanted most. And I have received several car advertisements of other brands, but it’s fine, and it’s not a bad thing. Tired of all the fuss.
Therefore, this “product manager Luo Yonghao” may be used to refute rumors. With my physique, it is necessary to keep an account that can be used to refute rumors.
“Late”: Do you have any psychological burden to leave all the fans on social media?
Luo Yonghao: It’s okay, although the posting and communication on the public platform will basically disappear in the future, but I have a live broadcast of Douyin selling goods every one or two weeks.可能聊不了什么，但对神交多年的很多老朋友来说，还是会有那种内敛克制的互动，比如他们在直播间弹幕上跟我说一句老朋友之间才懂的梗，我就回一个意味深长的暧昧表情…… 这种情感交流还挺高级、挺让人向往的。
《晚点》：听说你很喜欢拉黑别人，微博给你开了无限拉黑权限。你算过自己总共拉黑过多少人吗？
罗永浩：谣传，都有上限，怎么会没上限？我没仔细数过拉黑了多少人。有的时候晚上失眠了，打开手机，一口气拉黑几十个评论里说话难听的，就睡得很香。这也是过去艰辛的创业过程中，为数不多的治愈时刻。
《晚点》：你知道被你拉黑的人中，很多是锤粉么？
罗永浩：知道。我从不客气的原因是，我也是很多人的粉丝，但我从来不会因为喜欢或是支持过他们，就觉得可以在他们的微博下出言不逊。这好像应该是做人的基本礼貌和常识吧，毫不相干的人之间也应该这样，更何况还是所谓的“粉丝” 呢？
也有一些锤友被拉黑后，会用小号跟我联系，承认自己写的时候欠考虑，失礼了，跟我道歉。我看到都会马上取消拉黑，并发一个笑脸或握手的表情。维护账号的公司同事，也会经常帮我做类似的事。整体上，这些我处理得应该没有什么问题吧。如果不是的话，欢迎纠正。
《晚点》：你经常提成名的烦恼，成名对你来说就没有任何快乐吗?
罗永浩：我当年是因为“老罗语录” 莫名其妙地出了名，回想起来，出名给我带来的快乐大部分好像都在头半年。跟朋友们出去吃饭，跑过来一个清秀的女孩子要求签个名，合个影什么的，我也有过虚荣心上的很大满足。再比如到一个陌生的城市，因故想找个可信的当地人请教些问题，网上发个贴就有很多热心朋友帮忙，这些都给我带来过非常明确的快乐。但这个过程很短暂，后来基本上就都是烦恼和困扰为主了。当然这也可能是我自己的问题，我有比较严重的社恐，那些喜欢到处结交新朋友的人，可能成名后应该挺幸福的。
“’真还传’ 是一个远远超出契约精神的正面案例”
《晚点》：现在还剩多少债没还完？离开交个朋友，会影响还债进度么？
罗永浩：已发生的直接债务还剩不到一个亿。按计划本来今年3 月底前就该全还完了，但因为去年年底又出了些意外纠纷，全还完要到11 月前后。为了不错过再创业的时间窗口，尽快启动新公司的工作，我跟交个朋友签了个长约。交个朋友接下来帮我按月稳定地还完剩余债务，我把本来要再用半年多为交个朋友所做的工作，摊到未来几年里逐步完成。这样在时间精力上不会耽误新公司的工作，这也是之前传闻中所谓“天价分手费” 的背景。未来锤子科技可能还会有一些目前法律上尚未发生的债务，到时候我也会和交个朋友按类似的方式处理。
《晚点》：当初是什么推动了你决定要把全部的债还完?
罗永浩：这个其实回答过很多次了，原因还是比较复杂的，简单归纳一下，以下几个是主要原因。
1. 彻底梳理债务时，发现一些我们欠了债的小企业几乎比我们还困难，如果债务还不上，他们很可能出现严重的财务危机，甚至可能倒闭，后来的实际操作中，这些企业也是尽量优先还的；
2. 有些合作伙伴在之前的那几年为我们提供了超出“公事公办”、超出“在商言商” 的厚道帮助，这种情义上的亏欠，很难用法律上的“破产清算后就两清了” 来说服自己；
3. 我想着迟早还要回来做智能硬件，还要跟这其中的很多供应商朋友做生意，我实在不知道如果让他们遭受了这些损失，未来如何再面对他们谈合作；
4. 当然，说不清到底算幼稚还是算古典情怀的个人英雄主义，或多或少也是个原因，但一定不是最主要的原因。
《晚点》：也有人认为欠债还钱本就天经地义，不必这么高调。
罗永浩：当时债主公司很多朋友们需要我有个公开的说法，以便他们跟上层交代，所以我们决定不破产清算而是还债之后，就把这事公布了。加上录脱口秀大会，我也没说过几次，倒是有大量的媒体说了几十轮、上百轮，甚至不跟我们确认，就好几次急急忙忙替我宣布“债务已经还完了”，导致我们不得不多次辟谣。在传播中客观上导致了“太高调” 的印象，但确实不是我们的公关团队运作的。
其实基于现代公司法，无论在哪个现代国家，还这个债都肯定不是天经地义的。这些债务里，我自己签过个人无限担保责任的不到15%，剩下的都是公司债务，公司破产清算就不用还了，这就是“有限责任公司” 的意思。所以“真还传” 不是一个遵守契约精神的正面案例，而是一个远远超出契约精神的正面案例。
但从另一个角度看，作为一个企业家，这是不是最优选择、是不是值得推广，我其实没有确定的答案，我也不觉得有唯一正确的答案。很多因欠债维持不下去的创业者，选择了合法破产清算，再次创业时，基于情感和道义，给债主和投资人发了些股份，新公司做成了，同样皆大欢喜。所以有时候我也会想，是不是当初应该直接再创业去做科技公司，然后给债主朋友们发一些新公司的股票会更好？但这个问题的答案已经不重要了，毕竟这事儿都快结束了。
也想顺便提醒一下，所有正常依法破产清算的失败企业和企业家都不应该被批评谴责、嘲弄挖苦。企业家是推动经济繁荣、社会进步的中坚力量，即使是失败的企业家，只要遵守了规则，没做主观恶意的事，也应当得到基本的尊重，这是文明社会的基本价值观。就像我们不该嘲笑失败的运动员一样。
《晚点》：一直以来，很多人都认为老罗是一个非常理想主义的人，和商业世界有天然的冲突性。你现在在商业上还有道德洁癖吗?
罗永浩：谈不上道德洁癖，但是我的道德水准、自律性、知行合一这些，肯定是远远超过绝大多数普通人的。对我要从事的事业和我的长期目标来说，这些特质说不上是好是坏。一些放在知识分子身上显而易见高贵的品质，放到企业家身上很可能就是毫无必要的思想包袱，会给公司运营带来很多不必要的负担。再比如做品牌和口碑建设的时候，这些特质又很容易产生巨大的力量和优势。但不管好坏，带着这些特质创业，应该就是我的宿命吧。
《晚点》：很多网友批评你们投资的“重新加载” 复刻鞋违背你从前强调的原创精神，认为你变了。如果是10 年前的罗永浩，会做一个复刻鞋品牌吗?
罗永浩：如果只是投资的话，当然有可能。但无论是十年前，还是十年后，我都不会自己去做。我说过很多次，我只能从创造性的工作中获得长期的激励。
系统性地合法复刻外观专利过期的经典名鞋，并将其做成一个品牌，这不是一件牛逼的事，但也不是什么有错误或缺德的事。它只是一门很有想法、很有前途的好生意。从法律、商业伦理上都没有任何问题，而且还能创造社会价值。它让那些买不起名牌鞋的人，用三分之一的价格买到品质、用料跟原款一样，甚至超越原款的好产品，和最经典的好设计。
“重新加载” 没有侵权使用别人的品牌商标。无论是球鞋上，还是包装盒上，也都有“重新加载” 跟原款鞋完全不一样的品牌商标，有什么问题呢？甚至有些规模较大的运动产品企业，都抄过外观专利过期的经典球鞋，也在到处卖，为什么好像只有“重新加载” 才挨骂？想来想去不得要领，最后他们团队的人偷懒说，估计还是罗老师一贯的招黑体质吧。我说，好吧，以后我不帮你们卖鞋了。我是冤大头，他们是精神病，你们是白眼狼，爱谁谁吧。
《晚点》：你曾经和唐岩等几个朋友聊了一晚上人类会不会永生，永生后会怎么样，为什么想到永生？你爱这个世界的什么呢？
罗永浩：我相信人类真的实现永生之后，也未必会比现在更快乐，更幸福，但我还是希望人类能掌握生老病死这人生四件事的至少一部分主动权。人类文明走到今天，生老病死，竟然还是一样都由不得我们，想到这个，还是有点无奈、有点伤感的。
归根结底还是我心理上一贯健康和强悍的某种特色反应吧。毕竟客观上，这个世界还是挺让人失望的，脆弱的人就很容易讨厌甚至恨这个世界。像我这种无敌正能量大胖子创业家的想法是，正因为这个世界让人失望，所以面对那些少数能让我感受到美好、善良、甚至是幸福的人时，我就特别不愿意让他们失望，特别想回馈给他们更多温暖的东西。我理解的“我爱这个世界”，大概就是这样吧。
《晚点》：你理想中老去、死去的状态是什么样的?
罗永浩：如果有的选，最好死在工作岗位上。比如AR 公司经过多年奋斗，团队已经运转得异常良好，公司有我没我都没什么关系了。然后应市场部同事的无耻要求，我强撑着再开最后一个产品发布会，发布一款特牛逼的、划时代的好产品。如果过程中死在会场上，比如心肌梗塞当场挂掉，你想我发布的那个本来就特牛逼的产品，得卖成什么样子？我们产品的铁杆支持者们一把鼻涕一把泪地说，“再给我来三个”。
《晚点》：倒地死掉之前会做什么?
罗永浩：如果那时候我身体真的很差，我大概率会把那场发布会提前完整录一个视频放到另一个讯道里备用。现场我要是不行了，就让他们赶紧切到事先录好的视频上。因为直播会设置几十秒的延迟，我倒下去的样子会被剪掉，不会播出去。除了现场那一点点观众知道，网上的观众朋友们当时是不会知道的，所以对这个世界来说，这场发布会仍然是完美的。发布会结束后，消息逐渐扩散开…… 这场发布会和这款产品，应该都会成为传奇吧。
倒地死掉前应该是打手势指挥现场的同事赶紧切换2 号讯道吧，就像这样……咦，这有点儿像胜利的手势啊。
本文转自： https://www.latepost.com/news/dj_detail?id=1179
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