At the end of last year, the American magazine “New Republic” named Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg “villain of the year”. The concept of a metaverse in 2009 is completely disregarded for what people really want to do in a non-virtual life, let alone in a virtual one.”
As we all know, Europeans and Americans hate Mark Zuckerberg. Hate his robot-like appearance, hate that he is a billionaire at a young age, hate Facebook’s control of the media, hate that Meta burns tens of billions of dollars a year in pursuit of the ethereal metaverse – even the VR that benefits from it Users and practitioners don’t have a good impression of Zuckerberg.
In the eyes of geeks who believe in technology, Zuckerberg is a speculative businessman full of copper smell, especially when he chose to take the lightweight route in 2019, making VR all-in-one machines, metaverse , and Oculus represented by Carmack. This skepticism also peaked when the technocrats were at odds. This is also why Zuckerberg posted a simple metaverse selfie some time ago, which caused a tsunami of ridicule in Europe and the United States.
You can question the success of Meta’s metaverse , but Zuckerberg, who spends $10 billion a year in “tuition”, can’t deny that he is still standing at the top of the industry today, with views overlooking VR / AR and The clearest view of the metaverse.
Perhaps to save his “hand slip”, perhaps to warm up the upcoming Quest 2 Pro, Zuckerberg recently visited the most popular podcast in the United States “The Logan Experience Show”, and UFC commentator Joe Luo Root had a conversation that lasted more than two hours.
In this podcast episode, Zuckerberg talks about key issues in the new Quest, VR / AR future technology roadmap, metaverse , neural interface, VR social, and VR office, etc., and talks about his current situation and views in detail. Unlike public relations occasions such as press conferences, Zuckerberg talked a lot about this conversation with Rogan.
The following is an excerpt from Joe Rogan’s conversation with Zuckerberg, compiled and organized by Geek Park.
01 “What we are doing is increasing the sense of presence step by step”
Joe Rogan: Your new Oculus is awesome and impressive.
Zuckerberg: Yes, in October. We’ll be discussing it at the upcoming Connect Conference, and I’m very excited about that.
Joe Rogan: It was so funny when I put it on, I had an avatar in front of me and it was an alien woman. When I move my mouth, the Alien moves hers. When I moved my eyes from side to side, she followed my eyes. When I make an angry face, she also looks angry… Incredible. You can see the imitation process, it’s directly imitating humans in a creepy way, but it’s cool.
Zuckerberg: To me, these things are all about helping people connect. It’s just me starting to think, what is the ultimate expression of people using technology to feel each other’s presence? When it’s not a phone and it’s not a computer.
Like how do you get this sense of being there, like you’re with another human being, which to me is what virtual reality, and ultimately augmented reality, is going to achieve. You just have to run the technology roadmap over the next decade, unlocking it step by step. And for the next device coming out in October, there are some big features that, like you said, are essentially about social present.
There’s some sort of eye-contact capability in the new version of virtual reality that lets your face be tracked so your avatar isn’t just something static. If you smile, if you frown, or if you pout, whatever your expression is actually translates to your avatar in real time. Like when people stay together, there is more body language than verbal communication.
Joe Rogan: You’re absolutely right about face tracking. For example, if you’re on a FaceTime call, you can’t see the other person’s eyes. If you’re looking at the camera of your phone, you’re only looking up; if you’re looking down at a face on the screen, you’re not making eye contact. But with an avatar in VR , real eye contact can be recreated.
Zuckerberg: Yeah, it’s going to be the first time that’s actually done. Today, with technology we can make voice calls and video calls, which is great. Because if you can’t be with someone right now, it’s good to be able to see their face. But when you’re on a video call, you don’t feel like you’re really with the other person, even if you have a signal to get information and see their faces.
Throughout the process, you’re trying to convince your brain that you’re really with them, but your brain knows: on a deeper dimension, you’re not actually with each other, you’re just getting some Information such as who they are and what they look like.
Virtual reality, I think, essentially solves this: convince the brain that “it” is really there, even though you’re not there. Doing this requires solving a lot of conscious problems, and every time we make a new version, we’re just trying to break down one barrier after another.
The obvious first hurdle is having a headset that can look around. What needs to be done for this? Your eyes refresh basically every five milliseconds. So if you turn your head and the image doesn’t refresh to where you’re looking within five milliseconds, there’s a huge mismatch between your visual system and your vestibular system and the sense of balance in your ears, and people feel feeling unwell.
And then we got hands, and this thing was fun. At first we wanted to show the whole arm because it was a little weird just to see your hand. But in fact, your brain is perfectly willing to see your hand without the long arms, because it’s your hands that try to manipulate things. Also, if our frame insertion technique flips the arm position out of position, you’ll feel like: ah, my elbow is broken, and this is going to go wrong.
So even though only a limited number of signals are shown, they are getting better and better at simulating reality. All that needs to be done next is to increase the signal over time.
In previous versions, eye contact was all just AI simulated, and we actually don’t know when you guys have eye contact because we didn’t track the eyes. Now in this version, we want to simulate a lot of different signals going forward. You’ll be able to have real facial expressions and map directly to your avatar.
In general, there’s this roadmap: it’s about how you deliver this real presence, as if you were with another person, no matter where you were actually.
Joe Rogan: It’s very impressive. The way [the headset] is tracked is not by putting the tracker on the body, but do you think that will be the case eventually? Will it be like a player has to wear a haptic feedback suit to enter the game? That way, you’ll be completely there. Or do you think it’s now possible to accurately mimic your body’s movements without requiring you to wear anything?
Zuckerberg: I think there is an opportunity to wear gear to further enhance the experience. We’ve done these experiments with haptic gloves, and if you touch an object in a digital world, like throwing a ball from one hand to the other, you can physically feel the ball in your hand. It’s cool, but I wanted to design it in a way that you don’t need gloves.
So there are two main modes of tracking today, one of them is inside-out tracking, you’re wearing the headset and it’s tracking your movements, your arms, and eventually it’s tracking with an AI model Your leg. The biggest advantage of this mode is that you can do it all with just the headset, without having to have a lot of different devices or even a controller. At the same time, headsets will become smaller and more portable. You don’t want to have 10 parts in one unit.
Maybe sometimes you want to have that super immersive experience, or you want to have that experience at home, but I think in the end people just want to have products that can be easily carried anywhere, whether it’s on a plane or in the office work, or go to a coffee shop or something. For that, you really only want to make it work on one device, so preferably just a pair of glasses or something like that.
VR and AR are two different development paths, but they are clearly fundamentally interconnected and together make up virtual reality. So to go ahead and build Quest 2 today, it’s pretty popular right now, and it’s well done. And, I think the launch of the new version will be a considerable improvement.
Oculus Quest 2 | Meta
We’ve looked at a lot of new technology to integrate into it, but at the same time, it’s built on decades of advanced technology and display technology, including technology from TVs, laptops, and cell phones. Some of these display technologies are already building on the innovations of the past few decades.
AR is a very different beast because what you want is really not a headset, you want a pair of glasses that look normal. It’s not as simple as a product wireframe, because you need to put some electronics in it. Basically you need a computer, a speaker, a microphone, batteries and a laser projector in it, and then a monitor.
We and many people are looking at a technology called optical waveguides, which is totally different from a screen because it’s a special screen, and when you’re looking at something, you’re basically looking at all the pixels on the screen. The waveguide is different in that it’s actually thin enough to be transparent, so you can see the world through it, and then it’ll display a hologram and be able to image it placed in different depth-of-field spaces.
02 AR will make movies and games not limited to rectangular screens
Joe Rogan: As a technology, what is an optical waveguide?
Zuckerberg: They can be made of different substances, different substrates like plastic, glass. At the same time, they are etched or printed in different ways, and there is still a big debate here. There is a lot of research going on right now: which method can create a waveguide with the right properties? Because the hope is to provide a wide enough field of view for augmented reality.
So you can imagine that five years from now we will have this conversation. I’m not here, and the hologram Mark Zuckerberg is here when you put our glasses on.
It’s not just working in a holographic fashion, but the presence that all these different dimensions bring. Like, if you want to play poker remotely, we can play holograms, I deal a hologram deck, you wear glasses, you can physically pick up hologram poker, and then have a poker night where we friends are It’s actually kind of crazy to be around your physical space, only some of them are here in the form of holograms.
One thought experiment I like to do is: think about how little of the physical things we have in the world that really need a physical presence in physical space?
Obviously, something like a chair needs to be in the form of an actual object, but most entertainment things, not just cards, but games, most media, television, probably don’t need entities. It’s like an app, put the hologram in there as a TV, and we put on the glasses and watch whatever you want.
These things are now confined to rectangular screens because there are a lot of constraints, like the physics of production, but in the future, there will be some high school students or college students who will develop apps and they will be crazy, crazy things will be created come out. So you end up building something that does everything. They are glasses.
Joe Rogan: So are these glasses in production or in development right now? Like this technology you’re talking about, you can see things that don’t exist, where you look at maps, watch videos, all on a little computer in a glasses frame. Do they exist now?
Zuckerberg: I think in the next three to five years, there will be something that looks like a full version. The ultimate AR experience is like, you have a pair of normal-looking glasses that present holograms so you can interact with people anytime, anywhere. But it will also be very expensive at first, and it will take a while to get down to the hundreds of dollars.
But if you relax some constraints first, like form factor, you’ll start seeing some versions. There’s a headset that doesn’t require normal-looking glasses, and that’s the new device coming in October that brings mixed reality to virtual reality.
Mixed reality is when you see the physical world around you in the context of virtual reality, and it doesn’t happen through waveguides, but through a camera on the device that captures the world and then converts it into a stereoscopic image in real time. For 3D imaging, because we have two eyes, the two eyes see slightly different (field of view and image), the computer renders them together, and then you can overlay digitized objects on top.
For example, when I do fencing, my people and swords are digital virtual versions, otherwise all I can see is the hall. So you can see those AR experiences that are starting to be built, and the VR / AR experience takes precedence over the form factor requirements of the headset (lightweight). This is one of the directions the industry is exploring.
The other direction is that the headset form factor has to be a priority because of wanting to have something that looks like regular glasses. (And then to think) What is the most advanced technology we can fit in a pair of ordinary glasses today? Kind of like starting from the side.
On the smart glasses side, we’re partnering with Ray-Ban, and they’re going to be the best-selling smart glasses ever. We’ll keep working on new versions, but basically, you get a pair of smart glasses that look like the Ray-Ban Voyager. Now, it has a phone, a speaker, and the ability to take photos and videos; with voice commands, you can post these to Instagram.
Ray-Ban Traveler | Meta
Joe Rogan: What’s the quality of the pictures taken with these things?
Zuckerberg: Very good. If I’m not mistaken about the specs, it’s not as good as today’s rear cameras, which look like front-facing cameras. It can be fitted to the corners of glasses.
Joe Rogan: Will there be privacy issues if people start shooting with it?
Zuckerberg: Yeah, so we did the design, it had the lights on it, it was there at all times, and I think that’s actually a very important part of that.
Joe Rogan: So can you put a piece of tape on the lamp?
Zuckerberg: In theory it should be possible.
Joe Rogan: So that little thing in the corner is a lamp?
Zuckerberg: No, that’s the Lastolite flashing, it’s a very active indicator, and if you put a piece of tape on it, it might interfere with the camera.
Joe Rogan: Are these Voyager smart glasses the same size as regular Voyager glasses? Or will there be thicker frames?
Zuckerberg: Slightly thicker, but about the same weight. The reason we work with Ray-Ban is because they know a lot about eyewear design and are very keen, which is not our specialty, and I learned a lot working with them. In terms of constraints, for example, they know how big it can actually be without being too heavy and uncomfortable to wear for long periods of time. Ray-Ban is a great company, the collaboration so far has been great, looking forward to developing more with them.
Generally speaking, there are two technical routes. Add as many features as you can, but in a device that’s bigger than you want; or, every year or two, add more tech to the form factor you want to make it a better the design of. Eventually, these things will converge and you’ll get both functionality and form factor, but it’s still a bit expensive for a while, and then after a few years of fast-moving, it’s going to be mainstream.
But even today’s VR is doing well. We won’t release exact sales numbers, but it’s on the same scale as Xbox, Playstation, or other similar platforms.
When we started doing it, gaming was the first scene in VR . But soon, VR will add different scenarios. Because the main thing people do, is actually communicate, which is how we get meaning in our lives – interacting with others, so that’s definitely going to happen in VR. If you look at the top apps and VR out there right now, most of them are basically social metaverses where you can hang out with friends in an app, not centered on any particular game.
From the beginning of the game, the VR scene is still evolving, and it will become a huge social platform to soak in with friends and be immersive. These scenes are crazy and happen sooner than I thought.
An important scenario is fitness, and VR is like the first physical computer platforms for fitness. When you’re on a computer, you don’t like to move around; when you’re on a phone, you might be able to move around, but it’s a little awkward because you’re looking at a small screen. But things like VR/ AR are really designed so that you can move around, do things, and interact with the world, which is really important to me. I hate sitting at the desk, it makes me feel lethargic and wastes my day.
In this regard, there are already several companies with some great content, such as Peloton ‘s experience built specifically for VR . Peloton sells you a bike or treadmill, then you buy a subscription and you get a class with a real experience. There are also several companies doing aerobics, dance, boxing classes. But you don’t need to buy a bike, you just need your Quest headset.
Once you have a headset, you can subscribe to classes from these companies to do different things, exercise, and I think that’s pretty cool and wild. We all know these things are bound to happen in the long run, but it’s happening now, faster than I thought, which is really cool.
03 The end of VR doesn’t have to be The Matrix
Joe Rogan: If you do boxing, you immediately realize it’s a really good physical workout. When the virtual boxer comes up to you and throws you in the ring, you move your head, you get a very high heart rate, it burns a lot of energy, and it’s very good cardio. And, you find your feet hurt because you keep spinning and moving, changing positions, trying to get out of your fist. And as you continue to unlock higher levels, some games like opponents get tougher, and the experience is exciting and fun. When you finally leave the game, you’re really exhausted, and it’s a really good workout.
Zuckerberg: Yes. That’s the essence of the whole platform, and one of the reasons I love it. But those aren’t even trying to be fitness apps, they just happen to be exercise programs.
Joe Rogan: It’s really interesting that VR can have two people having a fencing match tonight. In a virtual fencing match, you’re facing one direction, about 30 feet away, and I’m facing the other, and we’re not even facing each other. But it doesn’t matter. You are in Bangladesh, I am in Rome, we can still play together. But can VR enable boxing to do that?
Zuckerberg: The fencing demo was made by our internal team because we haven’t released a new device yet. So, to make the hardware work, we developed this demo ourselves.
However, boxing games are made by other game developers, different developers, and I’m not sure if any of them support multiplayer. All I’ve played are the single-player formats, which really make boxing fights more exciting, and I really like Creed (note: a boxing VR game). I think they can do multiplayer, and there’s nothing stopping them from doing it. So I guess over time they will add this feature.
Joe Rogan: It seems like a smart move. If we talk about martial arts like muay thai and so on, i think jiu jitsu would be a real problem because you have to have something physically to resist. But if you can want to do a muay thai mod, the only problem to solve is that objects change when you touch them. Objects change with the person’s position and movement. You may or may not escape. Boxing is pretty good at this by comparison, it’s probably the best fighting sport in virtual reality because you don’t even have to hit anything to feel like you’re being punched and your screen will light up like you It feels like I’ve been hit.
Zuckerberg: Yeah, it’s easier to make a VR game that throws a fist . In jiu-jitsu, if you don’t have a special mat or something, it’s actually very difficult to simulate rolling or other movements and add the real weight of the human body.
Joe Rogan: Whether or not you imagine one day what your body actually feels like playing a game will be irrelevant because everything happens in your head. Whether it’s haptic feedback or other types of input, even if there are no real objects, the body feels the same as real existence, just like “The Matrix”. Will this be the final direction?
Zuckerberg: I don’t know. But I think a lot of our experiences are based on our bodies, not just our minds.
There is indeed a philosophical thought that human beings exist only for the brain (I think therefore I am). But I don’t agree at all, I don’t know how you perceive things, but I feel like my vitality and emotions, and the way I interact with the world, are based on the body. It might be possible to simulate the real world through your brain over time, but I don’t believe it’s just the brain at work, I think the body is equally important in all experiences.
Movie “The Matrix”
Joe Rogan: I agree. But I’m also thinking, if technology goes further, more immersive, more convincing, the “uncanny valley” is connected, and all of a sudden you have a real-life experience, whether it’s through some kind of Isn’t neural linking or other new technologies to trick the brain into actual experience the way of the future?
You can have experience without experiencing it, it’s not that it negates the beauty of real experience, it’s not that we don’t have real experience anymore, but if you want to have real experience, go to another world, we can wear Go there with Oculus. You can have a very realistic 3D mirror image, which is pretty cool. Like you think that eventually through the development of technology, it is possible to make the conversation we have today, it doesn’t make any difference whether we are in the same room or not.
Zuckerberg: It’s interesting to speculate on the extreme state of development of a thing. But I think a more reasonable way of thinking about technological evolution is that some things are easier to imitate or replace than others. Like the VR fitness we talked about earlier, boxing content can do well right now. And muay thai and jiu-jitsu, maybe one day we can simulate it in VR, but it will be difficult because you need to eliminate all kinds of resistance factors.
So, I think the way this technology progresses is to be able to continue to do more things well; at the same time, other technologies or other things in the world are progressing, and no one can do it all.
Maybe it’s just because I’m trying to develop these things every day, I’m thinking about some achievable, good experiences. It’s certainly not a bad thing to jump to such a good point in one go, but those ideas are way ahead of where we actually are today. I’m in the trenches every day, trying to make it happen early.
04 The possibility of VR office and VR social interaction
Joe Rogan: Yeah, but looking at where it’s going in the long run, it’s going to be more immersive, better, more convincing, and that’s a real argument for simulation theory. If there are so many civilizations in the universe, and they are all so advanced, then eventually a simulated world must be created. This seems to be happening if humans survive another 100,000 years.
Zuckerberg: Yeah, I think the question is how realistic and how well it can be done. To me, it’s like the Holy Grail, building something that can create a sense of human presence.
It’s like I’ve spent nearly 20 years building social software that allows you to share your experiences no matter how limited your computing power is. What started out in the form of text, became in the form of photos with a smartphone and a camera. Now that the mobile web is good enough, more content is starting to be shared in the form of video. As far as I’m concerned, an immersive experience would obviously be the next step. Being able to feel the presence of you when you are with other people unlocks many different values, such as social, recreational, professional.
Some economists believe that economic opportunities and class mobility are limited, which is related to your region, and different places will have different opportunities. But imagine it would be great if you didn’t have to move to some city with different values than you to get all the economic opportunities. So in the future, you can use AR , VR to teleport to the office in the morning, and then appear in the form of a hologram, which will be very intimate. For many, it will unlock a wealth of economic opportunity.
Is it possible to be 100% as good as being there in person? Probably not, but it still creates a lot of value. Like when we were discussing doing this talk show, we had a conversation on the phone, and I didn’t fly to Austin to discuss whether to have this conversation.
So no matter the level of emulation, it brings a lot of value. You’ll never be able to do everything in person, but we’ll be doing it more and more in VR , gaming or hanging out today, work in the next few years. The work scene will gradually approach the asymptote of real experience, you can teleport in, appear as a hologram, work remotely; and the body can live anywhere you want, with your family, wherever they live where. That’s going to be great, and I think we’ll do well.
Joe Rogan: This creates real problems for commercial real estate. Because if that experience really became as good as having a phone in your pocket and being able to make calls, there wouldn’t be as many offices. I probably don’t want to go to the office anymore when I can teleport to work.
Zuckerberg: Probably. While I think the presence of being in a physical space with friends is important, the way people work has changed dramatically over the past few years. I meet people in person almost every day, but at the same time, I probably have more meetings at home than I used to.
Joe Rogan: I think so too. There’s really a lot of resistance right now about people going to the office instead of working from home, and people would rather work from home. Why do you have to be in the building to get work done when you can use an internet connection and conduct video conferences?
Zuckerberg: Yes. I agree. Our company is actually quite avant-garde when it comes to telecommuting, especially certain types of jobs, like software engineering. You can be in a different place and do a good job at the same time. Also, if you’re an engineer, sometimes it’s best not to be in the office because then people won’t bother you. You can have a full five hours to focus on solving a problem.
Like doing something, I would be in a state of concentration, and at this point, my wife would ask me some daily questions. Then I lost my focus, but from her point of view, even God was no big deal.
So I do think that at some point, enabling people to work remotely is actually useful for a lot of things, especially in the long run, but I also think we need to find a balance between remote work and offline work.
Joe Rogan: If my wife was talking and I happened to think of a joke, I would run away from my wife and signal her to understand. I was writing and she came in and interrupted, and it was over. So, in some ways, you have to have a really quiet and safe place. And I think for a lot of people, the pain in life would be so much better if you could eliminate wasted commute time and all that with AR , VR .
Zuckerberg: Yes. Over the past few years, the COVID-19 pandemic has made me rethink the way I work. I think reducing commuting is one of the great things to do with efficiency, but it’s also nice to be able to live in a different place.
I spent a lot of time in Hawaii and I really enjoyed surfing and laying on hydrofoils, I would wake up in the morning to do these, refreshed, and then have a full day of meetings. But that’s obviously not something I can do in Palo Alto. I have a very positive attitude towards all of this.
I think if you can give people the ability to be “present”, to work remotely, or to teleport to another place again, to be present and present as a hologram, that “flow state” would be very valuable. But it cannot replace everything.
One of the things I find most useful about larger meetings isn’t actually the meeting itself, but the opportunity to catch up with people before and after the meeting. Being able to teleport in and out is efficient, but has the downside that you might miss some leisurely breaks in the hallway or elsewhere. But overall, I still think it creates crazy efficiency.
Joe Rogan: Yeah, I think people will still crave real-world experiences, like I do sitcoms, and obviously in order to get that experience you have to be there, and being in a physical space with people is fun a part of.
I can imagine technology evolving to the point where you can create a virtual comedy club where you’ll see all the different people in the room wearing headsets, like doing stand-up comedy on Zoom during the pandemic, but that sucks, Because there is no audience, like public speaking, there is no feedback.
In contrast, there are some really great podcasts, like shows like Bill Burr, that just talk to himself and rant about life and other things that work so well that he doesn’t necessarily need someone to echo it. But different things are different, like comedy, no audience is bad.
Zuckerberg: Yes. In fact, I’ve had this experience at least once. So we made the Horizon social platform where people can build the world.
In it, people built something called the Soapstone Comedy Club in it. This is actually a very moving story I’ve heard of people using virtual reality.
It’s really sad that this woman has lost her son. And comedy is a very important outlet for her. But in a real club, performing in front of people would give her social anxiety. So, she started doing it at the soapstone comedy club. At the same time, thanks to the presence that virtual reality provides, she feels like she is with those in the virtual space. For her, the experience was a creative outlet to help her overcome her grief, but sharing such extreme emotional experiences may not have made her comfortable in offline comedy clubs.
Joe Rogan: My friend Brian Redban made something called Virtual Redban in Oculus. He logs in at the same time with a group of friends, walks into a room together, and hangs out and plays in it together. It’s really fun to have an online community where you go to a place, meet each other, talk to each other and hear each other’s voices.
The Avatar you see inside moves like the Alien you showed me today, and it looks very real. It’s an animation, and I would compare it to Avatar in the movie Avatar. Inside is like going to the world of the Na’vi people in the movie. On top of many technologies, great progress has indeed been made, and it is more realistic. I can imagine a lot of people wanting to be a penguin today, going to this restaurant, hanging out, hanging out with a bunch of penguin guys, it’s so exciting.
The movie “Avatar”
Zuckerberg: That’s the part where it’s a little psychedelic. The experience of some scenes is more real than others because the way our memory works is based on space. When I leave here today, I will remember that you are across from me, and there is symmetry, I am across from you, and we have a shared memory of the space of this place.
But the headset might not work that way. If you’re speaking from that direction, spatial audio builds a spatial model of things in a way that’s how we make memories. So if you use Zoom to chat, you totally screw it up because every meeting you have looks the same and there is no symmetry. So if you’re in the top left corner of my screen box, it doesn’t mean I’m in the same place as you, in fact, we don’t have any sense of shared space.
I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience, if I had a Zoom call for a day, everything would get mixed up and it would be hard for me to remember what was being said in what meeting.
我实际上认为，这里最难的部分是拥有一台计算机，把信息直接给你的大脑，但这不是我们正在做的事情，Neural Link 的伊隆·马斯克在做，这是非常遥远的事情。也许它会在几十年内准备好。短期内，对于受伤的人来说，可能会有一些有趣的用例。但我认为，在未来10 年或15 年内，正常人可能不会想在大脑里安装什么。
扎克伯格：我不知道。但我觉得这对我可能是一个有趣的事情，对我很有用。我一直在Zoom 里，尤其是在Covid 的早期，对我来说，既能在Zoom 里视频会议，又能和更多的人聊天。或者说有些事情你不想对在场的每个人说，但是你想问某一个人，就像，嘿，你能展开讲讲你刚才说的，或者你不想在别人面前说的话吗？
我的目标是对于VR / AR这些下一代平台，它们将更加身临其境，希望它们会更有用，但我不一定希望人们花更多的时间在电脑上。我只是希望人们花在屏幕上的时间更好，今天很多时候你只是坐在那里消费一些东西。
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